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apples
Junior Member
21 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Jan 2010 : 12:17:44
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For goodness sake BRAM, why do you continuously have this habit of twisting everything that is said to have a knock at the PC.?
It is very clear to myself why Neil's advice was not taken, and even Neil himself has agreed there was probably no one in the office capable of running their own website.
So..............why is that now to be used to once again hammer the PC for being wrong.
As far as I am concerned, there is and never has been, anything in the constitution of the Pc that says it has to have a website and all its staff have to be IT literate.
They have an office that is open for a face to face approach and they are on the end of a telephone.
The website is an extra that brings them into the 21stcentury.
Lets be honest, whatever the PC do, you will manage to twist and get more facts wrong and try to cause more trouble for the PC.
Ok, they are not saints and they do get things wrong, we all do that at times, but I really am fed up with your continual unwarranted digs at anything to do with them.
All it is doing is creating a situation that will not help important matters in the future.
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Bert
Advanced Member
484 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2010 : 19:10:14
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Having read the draft Minutes of the 14/12 meeting, now put on the APC website, I find it encouraging that Phil Leverick, elected only a few days before that meeting, had the confidence, at his first meeting, to offer his views on what he believed were the messages contained within the election result.
I agree with those views.
I was also pleased that the new Clerk, Rob Martin, outlined his vision, being that of openness and availablity, which appears consistent with Mr Leverick's views; and the more comprehensive Minutes of that meeting on the website.
Things are looking up. |
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neil
Forum Owner / Moderator
United Kingdom
2623 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2010 : 19:58:56
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You really are too fast for me, Bert!  I was just in the process of preparing the usual "snippets" from that meeting when you posted your message.
The snippets from the meeting can now be seen on the AVL News page. There is a link at the foot which will take readers direct to the full APC minutes.
My first impresssions of Rob Martin are also good. |
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patty
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
738 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2010 : 20:53:31
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JUST WHAT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO TELL YOU.
ITS COOOOOOOOL MAN.    |
any comments and views listed above are those of myself personally and not as a Parish Councillor, and in no way reflect opinions of the Parish Council or any other professional bodies |
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BRAM
Advanced Member
373 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2010 : 11:00:18
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Quite true Patty there is nothing to say that APC need a website but if you are going to set one up ("to bring APC into the 21st century")for goodness sake at least make sure it works properly & is not just another waste of resources.
Not everybody can get to the APC office & by the way since we now have a full time Clerk & increased hours for the assistant clerk why are the office hours still only 09:00 to 13:00?
I too get fed up - with inept& supercillious APC councillors.
Bert
I agree that the 14/12 meeting notes were far more comprehensive than they have been for a long time & the prospect of more openness is very welcome but whether old leopards will change their spots remains to be seen |
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apples
Junior Member
21 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2010 : 18:42:43
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quote:
Originally posted by BRAM
whether old leopards will change their spots remains to be seen
Show them how to do that by example for heavens sake - I have to take a happy pill after most of your posts. |
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Mr Growser
Average Member
United Kingdom
81 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2010 : 20:27:35
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Agree with Apples and suspect that Bram is in a minority of one regarding his assessment that Councillors are " Inept and Supercilious. "
Utter twaddle. |
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BFA
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
410 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2010 : 23:21:47
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quote:
Originally posted by BRAM
since we now have a full time Clerk & increased hours for the assistant clerk why are the office hours still only 09:00 to 13:00?
Office hours are 9-5 - it's just not open to the public after 1pm. The office can be contacted after 1pm - just not in person. It's a first, office staff can get on with what they have to with less interruption.
You can always pop in to the shop next door to have a word with the vice-chairman though |
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BRAM
Advanced Member
373 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2010 : 00:06:47
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Sorry Apples I mistook your posting of 7/1/10 12:17 as from Patty since it repeats the current APC party line of blaming all shortcomings on previous APC administrations & office staff despite the fact that the chairman, several councillors/office staff have been in officefor several years after without rectifying or improving on those shortcomings. Blaming predecessors only washes for a short time before the incumbents have to take responsibilty themselves.
My question was if the current website is not working what are APC going to do about it. Reshashing blame is pointless - lets have solutions.
Personally I would rather see an effective website than council taxpayers money wasted on a BMX track; go-karting lessons;improved acoustics in the Community Centre or any other crazy idea that is unlikely to benefit the majority of Angmering's population but we will have to pay for or we shall all be taking happy pills to cope with the escalating council tax that we will be lumbered with.
Mr Growser obviously doesn't include APC with WSCC in his characterisation of ZanuNewLab Britain (see thread re. ice & lack of gritting) although I think that all tiers of government in this country are equally bad.
On a related issue a news item on BBC South News reported that Surrey Council received supplies of road salt from WSCC even though the Highways Agency barn (sited next to Surrey's)was full but held in reserve for use on the M4 only.Joined up government in the UK is sorely lacking!
BFA
Is the APC office such a hub of activity & so constantly invaded by members of the public that they need to lock the doors for 4 hours each day to complete their work.
As to your suggestion that I pop next door to have a word with the vice chairman I recognise that councillors represent us part time & would not dream of imposing on her workplace to discuss parish matters - just in case one or both of us ended up arrested for breach of the peace. |
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BFA
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
410 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2010 : 00:54:11
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quote:
Originally posted by BRAM
BFA
Is the APC office such a hub of activity & so constantly invaded by members of the public that they need to lock the doors for 4 hours each day to complete their work.
Possibly BRAM - being next door and also married to the Vice-Chairperson I do know of people who's almost daily routine includes calling in to the office demanding to view files etc etc and there is no 'receptionist' on the payroll and I want to pay for one about as much as you do. But at least work is being done behind that locked door - previous it was just locked with nothing going on behind it until it was unlocked again. More work is being done and hopefully we will eventually see some benefit - Rome wasn't built in a day sort of thing.
quote:
Originally posted by BRAM
As to your suggestion that I pop next door to have a word with the vice chairman I recognise that councillors represent us part time & would not dream of imposing on her workplace to discuss parish matters - just in case one or both of us ended up arrested for breach of the peace.
Respect! |
Edited by - BFA on 09 Jan 2010 01:02:32 |
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Bert
Advanced Member
484 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2010 : 13:43:28
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I look on the APC website Newsdesk every few days, and I have to say that I fail to understand why such old and clearly outdated news is left on the page.
Some items have a running life and that is fine, but some are out of date and of no use to anyone.
I appreciate the page looks good when it is full of items, but surely once a couple of weeks have passed after the item is relevant, it should be cleared or put into some type of archive system.
The point of a news desk, is to inform residents of up to date news and information that is relevant. If there isn't any, and there will not always be any current or relevant news, then so be it.
The same applies to the Angmering Community Centre Association website News/Events page.
It is nicely set out, but much on there is way passed its interest date and should be cleared.
On this website, Neil has an excellent News page which he keeps very up to date, and then clears, by tucking each month away into an archive system, which is easily retrieved should one want to do so. |
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neil
Forum Owner / Moderator
United Kingdom
2623 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2010 : 17:04:26
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Bert, I've been on about dating news items to the APC for many years - but before the Assistant Clerk joined. For some reason they have refused to do it. News items are also often out of date order.
Regarding news on the Community Centre site, the CC currently do not have a webmaster. |
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neil
Forum Owner / Moderator
United Kingdom
2623 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2010 : 15:47:35
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| Following my previous post on 7 February and for the record, on Monday this week, the Angmering Community Centre Association took over the managing and updating of their own site. |
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neil
Forum Owner / Moderator
United Kingdom
2623 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2010 : 16:21:10
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The March issue of Angmering Parish News was distributed this week.
This has been quite a useful publication but it must be costing us, the Council Tax payers, quite a bit in its preparation, printing and distribution. Additionally, because it's a quarterly publication, it often contains older news that has been available on noticeboards, in the Library, on the APC website, or on the AVL website weeks or months beforehand.
With "All About Angmering" (AAA) distributed to every single household in the parish each month, I wonder whether it would be far more cost effective for the Parish Council to take a double page in that independent publication. Other organisations in the village use the publication, often extensively, to provide information about themselves and their events, so why couldn't the APC?.
Important parish news would be disseminated much quicker and, because AAA uses a smaller font size, about half the Parish News quarterly information could be accommodated in the monthly AAA. And it might save us thousands of pounds each year! It would also be much greener as less paper would be needed.
What do others think? Indeed, also what do parish councillors think?
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Bert
Advanced Member
484 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2010 : 20:43:26
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Neil, your suggestion appears very sensible to me.
I wonder if APC will reply, some individuals may, but APC registered on these forums almost a year ago, on 1st April 2009.
To date, after 49 weeks, their postings number exactly, ..... nil.
Although, if my memory serves me correctly, I recall Neil was apparently assured it was not an April Fools joke, and I am not against jokes in the right circumstances, the fact that a year has almost passed us by, I think the evidence of time, is quite compelling, that this was an April Fools joke, which for a Local Government Authority is quite sad, on an excellent website that does a great service to this village.
I also find it very strange that significant amounts of Council Tax money (in the region of £4,000) was spent only three months ago in December, in respect of an election for a vacancy of Parish Councillor.
An individual put himself up and then a second individual also put himself up, as a result forcing an election.
The following month, in January, another vacancy occurred.
APC advertised for interested parties to put themself up or a person would be co-opted.
We are now in March and that advertisement is still on the APC website and Notice Boards. If the person who came second in that election was so keen to get on APC, why has he not been co-opted or put himself up for election?
The events of last Nov/Dec and the election, appear very strange to me.
However, back to Neil's suggestion, I'm for it. |
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BRAM
Advanced Member
373 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2010 : 11:37:35
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Yet another cost effective idea Neill but like others will no doubt be disregarded by APC as they continue squandering our money.
WSCC & ADC council tax for 2010 set at 2.5%, Sussex police 2.7%. All of these organisations are notoriously high spenders of tax payers money but,surprisingly,all apparently appreciate the tough economic times people are experiencing & set a responsible example for once. Contrast then with APC who opt for 9.2%.
Whilst the APC clerk attempts to mollify this by equating it to a seemingly paltry 50p/mth it should be noted that a significant part of the increased precept covers his (& his assistants salaries)as well as the questionable projects that APC throw money at. |
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neil
Forum Owner / Moderator
United Kingdom
2623 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2010 : 09:05:23
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Before the parish council meeting started last night, I was attacked by the Chairman for getting my facts incorrect in saying that "All About Angmering" was distributed to every household in Angmering.
It seems he is correct. Only 3000 copies are printed whereas another 260 or so would be required for every household in Angmering to have a copy. It would appear that the Palmer Road area has been selected for not getting copies. The Chairman tells me that the Editor of the publication refuses to have more copies printed.
The statement on the cover of "All About Angmering" in my opinion deceives advertisers and residents into thinking that all households get a copy.
But knowing all of this, why is it that the Chairman has said nothing on these Forums when he knows the situation? After all, I only made a suggestion.
Of course the real telling point in these latest postings is the comment made by Bert. Nearly a year ago, the Chairman demanded that the then Parish Clerk registered for these Forums with the intention that the APC would respond to parish issues when necessary (or when it suited them!). I am aware that the Chairman later wished the Clerk to make a posting but the Clerk refused. The Clerk resigned a couple of months later, but not necessarily on this specific issue!
So what has happened since? Bert has on occasions reminded the APC of its registration on these Forums but the APC seems petrified in responding. Has the Chairman been silenced by the rest of his councillors? Has he changed his mind? Is he effectively still in charge?
Tell us honestly Mr Chairman, what is the position? If there has been a change to your decision, what is the reason? This matter is not going to go away. |
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BRAM
Advanced Member
373 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2010 : 12:24:16
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There are far too many publications produced & distributed by councils at substantial cost to taxpayers which duplicate information available elsewhere & merely serve to promote the public profile of local politicians.
The recent debacle with the Winter edition of Arun Times only recently delivered in Angmering is a typical example as most of its content was out of date.
I would be interested to know how APC Chairman managed to exclude his own local area from delivery of "All about Angmering" as I have been trying to stop junk mail delivered to my house by both leafletters and Royal Mail door to door sevice (i.e.junk mail delivered by postal staff with daily post) by formally opting out. In addition I have a notice on my letterbox advising no junk mail - but still it comes. |
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apples
Junior Member
21 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2010 : 20:00:17
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Goodness me Neil. What on earth has the Chairman done to upset you?
You are obviously attempting to 'goud' (spelling?)him into replying to you, but I wonder if perhaps this is the right way to quite go about things.
I can understand the PC point of view about not responding to this website, as quite honestly when any of the councillors say anything, things are twisted and they get an even bigger ear bashing from people, even when they are trying to be honest and helpful.
Also, if the pC office were to reply to this forum, then I for one am paying towards their wages for doing so, and I feel that I would rather see their time spent on more constructive things.
I would certainly not like to think that they are spending their time, browsing through the internet and talking on forums, not what public money should be used for at all.
I am sure perhaps people with a little more time on their hands, could make the questions direct to the PC office and then post the replies/information on this website for everyone,rather than this perpetual PC bashing which seems to be going on.
It is frankly beginning to get a wee bit tiring. 
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neil
Forum Owner / Moderator
United Kingdom
2623 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2010 : 20:40:35
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Perhaps when the Chairman pretended to slap my face in public last night!  Perhaps for other actions in the last few months.
The PC is quite happy to use this website when it suits them, apples, as you know full well!!! |
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240felicia
Senior Member
172 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2010 : 10:06:42
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What people seem to ignore is that this is a privately run website, the owner of which publishes information as he sees fit.
He chooses to publish snippets of Parish Council information, and it is his choice what items he includes.
The fact that some PC news, minutes etc are discussed here does not however mean that the Parish Council are obliged to respond on the forum, nor does it mean that they are lax for not doing so.
The PC have their own website, albeit a pretty poor one, and they have a telephone, and email, you can even go into the office which is open daily, and speak to a human in person, and if you're really keen, you can attend their meetings like Neil.
The fact remains however that the Parish Council has too much responsibility devolved to a bunch of untrained people who, apart from one man, have not been elected by public vote, and have the freedom to make decisions and spend our money without consulting anyone, and without even neccesarily listening to the rest of the council, let alone the rest of the parishoners. |
hello nice to meet you ;o) |
Edited by - 240felicia on 10 Mar 2010 10:12:55 |
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Bert
Advanced Member
484 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2010 : 11:02:23
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240felicia, I think your posting is a little unfair.
Everyone knows this is a "privately run website," so I do not think anyone is "ignoring" that fact.
Neil, who I do know, but I would not consider as a close friend, and with whom I do not always agree, appears to me to put on a very balanced and even handed News page. He puts what I consider to be pretty much facts, not opinion on the News page.
He is entitled to put his opinions on postings on the forums, but even then I feel he is extremely balanced and fair and is clearly conscious that it is his website. He is far more fair and even handed than I would be.
I think the "snippets" of Parish Counci meetings are an excellent manner in which to reproduce from the original minutes, matters arising from those meetings. Neil always puts a direct link to the relevant meeting full minutes, at the bottom of each snippet, thereby providing everyone the opportunity to click onto the full minutes and read them. I fail to see what more he could do.
So far as APC "responding" to anything on this website, particularly the forums, you are correct, that they are not obliged to do so.
However, there have been issues on these forums where a response could have been a reasonable way to proceed, to clear up any difficulty or ambiguity within issues of the village. Parish Councils work slowly and in these days of instant information, they could have utilised this forum, without causing any problem.
You also appear to be missing the point, that on 1st April 2009,(April fools day) the Chairman arranged for APC ( not any individual) to be registered on these forums. (Patty, as an individual, has clearly gone out of her way to provide as much information as possible, which I am sure is appreciated by the readers of this forum.)
To be registered indicates a clear intention to be in a position to make a posting, (which they have not done) or it could have been an April Fools "joke" which some may consider indicates a degree of contempt.
So far as the events of Monday evenings PC meeting are concerned, I was not there, I have not seen or spoken to Neil, so cannot give a personal view, but it appears a pretty poor show.
This website does put a degree of pressure on APC, that other PC's do not have, but information is for the benefit of the residents, the alternative in 2010, the age of information, is for us all to go around not knowing what is going on, with the exception of an occasional and outdated PC newsletter, which in the main relates to PC matters only.
The PC need, in my humble opinion, to embrace and work with this website, not give the impression that they are fighting against it.
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neil
Forum Owner / Moderator
United Kingdom
2623 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2010 : 11:48:36
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With regard to the snippets of PC committee minutes that I publish on the News page, these are items that I think will be of greater interest to sections of the community and to capture these items for a historic record of how things developed in the parish when people look back in years to come.
Some people do not want to pore over copious minutes but, for those who do, I include a link to the full minutes for easy access as Bert mentions.
The minutes, of course, do not tell you everything which is why I sometimes go to full PC meetings if I am free. There you can normally get a better "feel" for what is going on and sometimes reasons for decisions. I don't know why, and maybe I am entirely wrong, but I am getting the feeling of less transparency when I attend these meetings. Minutes are issued but so much is now attached to the minutes in a separate document that the public is not given. In the old days, if you attended a meeting, you were able to see the attachments. The cynical would say that this is a way of avoiding giving information but I'm sure this is not the case - just a lack of perception of what the public would want to see.
I wonder whether the PC would consider attaching appropriate documents to the minutes they publish - does not need to be every one - as the minutes are often meaningless without them. Again, this is just a suggestion - please feel free to disagree with me. |
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240felicia
Senior Member
172 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2010 : 16:18:52
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Hey Bert, It is a fact that Neil can choose what he wants to publish on his website.
How exactly can that statement be construed as unfair?
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hello nice to meet you ;o) |
Edited by - 240felicia on 10 Mar 2010 16:19:23 |
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BRAM
Advanced Member
373 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2010 : 13:25:25
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Was anybody aware that APC were pursuing "Quality Parish Status,"a fact which only slipped out in the Policy & Finance meeting of 1/3/10 item 09/67 (c)regarding the newsletter.It does however explain APC's spending spree particularly in their questionable decision to employ an expensive, full time Parish clerk.
For those interested www.nalc.gov.uk/Toolkits/Quality_Status.aspx.
Just briefly reading the criteria it seems APC may have dificulty in passing the tests of Electoral Mandate, Communications & Community Engagement & Promoting Local Democracy & Citizenship.
I would suggest that they start by at least informing the Angmering Community of their intention & opening up debate on this & other topics. |
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neil
Forum Owner / Moderator
United Kingdom
2623 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2010 : 19:42:42
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BRAM, the PC has been pursuing "Quality Parish Status" for 2/3 years. The previous permanent Clerk never finished getting his qualifications to my knowledge before he "moved on". Lack of councillors earlier last year also caused problems in achieving QP Status.
My background is in QA and reading the Scheme - it is just a joke. Send in your answers without any auditor visiting the PC office and you can get your certificate! However, it is a beginning.
What this is really all about is keeping Angmering Parish Council independent and not being taken over by Rustington PC, as has been a fear.
But it is one of the Scheme's discretionary requirements that has me in stitches, namely:
quote:
You provide a regular weblog on your website about council activity or encourage your community to talk to you through an online forum or through surveys on your website
Ho, Ho, Ho!
ROTFLMAO |
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BFA
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
410 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2010 : 22:44:01
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quote:
Originally posted by neil
....."Quality Parish Status" ....... one of the Scheme's discretionary requirements that has me in stitches, namely:
quote:
You provide a regular weblog on your website about council activity or encourage your community to talk to you through an online forum or through surveys on your website
Ho, Ho, Ho!
ROTFLMAO
Well it is a discretionary requirement, hopefully the Parish Council are concentrating on compulsary requirements both inside and outside of this quality status and possibly when those boxes are ticked they can move on to things like this.
Maybe they can include some interaction on some sort of forum on their own website where they can call the shots - for example insist that they know who they are talking to - it's only polite and that information would not have to be public.
Instead of poking their heads above this parapet to take blastings from mostly anonymous posters. A couple or three have been here and done that and now they don't any more, and frankly not only do I not blame them for that, I respect them for it.
They're not in a secret bunker on Chanctonbury ring, they're in the square, they have a phone number and an email address and Joe Public can stand up and be counted at most of their meetings, but generally, he doesn't - far easier to make demands here from your swivel chair and then whine about lack of response, and if it was scores of parishioners making those demands then maybe that would prick some ears up, but it's the same few, countable on one hand and heard/read by very few and out of those few most couldn't give one anyway really.
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neil
Forum Owner / Moderator
United Kingdom
2623 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2010 : 09:59:30
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BFA, the element of the Quality Parish Council scheme that I raise actually falls within a compulsory section where 9 out of 17 "discretionary" requirements must be addressed.
The reason why I have highlighted it is not just the PC's poor attitude to these Forums, it it also because this element is one of the most important in a quality management system - i.e. FEEDBACK FROM CUSTOMERS. A proper scheme such as one based on the ISO 9000 Series demands feedback and requires that this is analysed and acted upon.
Poor attitute? Yes. Before I even started the AVL website in 2005, many councillors were against the idea when I consulted them. I even consulted them before the Forums were launched one year later with the same result. They had already made up their minds that they did not want any feedback on their performance - for obvious reasons!
Apart from the Forums, the only other real feedback solicited in recent years was the Community Centre questionnaire. That was an appalling document that failed to ask the most obvious questions because the PC was scared of the answers that would be given. And I say that as a supporter of the CC
The reasons why the PC gets so much criticism is that it still treats its customers with contempt. It pretends to be transparent, but it is not - only a few councillors seem to understand this concept (a few MPs are learning too!), and I know that they are working hard to achieve it. The PC too often has not given straight answers to questions whether on these Forums, at a public meeting, or as a result of a direct approach to the PC itself. That is why residents are so suspicious of the PC and criticise it - of course sometimes unjustly. But blaming the Forums is just a smoke screen.
Notwithstanding the fact that councillors no longer comment on the Forums, many members of the PC do nevertheless read them and take action as a result of the comments. For example, my recent suggestion about abandoning the Newsletter in favour of pages in "All About Angmering" was considered and then dismissed. I understand the reasons and think the PC, on balance, probably made the correct decision. If the PC ignores all comments on the Forums, it runs the risk of throwing the baby out with the bath water.
I cannot see the PC having any effective form of feedback on its own website in the foreseeable future. The PC has been promising to reconstruct its website for nearly 10 years. All have been false dawns. Sticking the old site into a new skin does not disguise the fact that the Angmering PC website is undoubtedly the worst in the district. It contains so much redundant and disorganised material that few people want to look at it. In 10 years, the only improvement has been the inclusion of historic minutes.
The PC has been so lazy that it has not even considered any text for its opening page - something I urged them to do after the so-called revamp nearly two years ago. This could have been achieved with just half an hour's work. I'm sorry, but the chairman must take full responsibility for this failure. We, the tax payers, are paying for the maintenance and updating of the PC website and it is hardly usable. Never mind - the Parish Quality Council Scheme does not care - you just get a tick in a box (and probably 5 points!) for having a website.
Surely, with nearly a full complement of councillors, one of them could stick his/her hand up and say "I would like to have a go at revamping the website". I'm sure there are many people in the parish who would help him/her without incurring any costs.
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BRAM
Advanced Member
373 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2010 : 10:48:03
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Well said Neil.
In my own experience charter marks are merely a facade for organisations to appear efficient whilst providing well paid work for pseudo experts.Self assessment seems to be the rule- rather like marking your own exam papers to ensure good grades. |
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BRAM
Advanced Member
373 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2010 : 13:09:47
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BFA
Since "hopefully the Parish Council are concentrating on compulsary requirements both inside and outside of this quality status and possibly when those boxes are ticked they can move on to things like this"
they may also wish to consider:
"Rural watchdog urges councils to involve communities in public spending decisions
Trials of a new way of involving local people in public spending decisions have been so successful that the Government's rural watchdog, the Commission for Rural Communities (CRC), now wants more rural local authorities to adopt participatory budgeting." www.ruralcommunities.gov.uk/files/participatorybudgeting.pdf
The people of Angmering might have a say then in how their money is spent.
edited for text error. |
Edited by - BRAM on 18 Mar 2010 13:11:02 |
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BFA
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
410 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2010 : 22:44:43
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quote:
Originally posted by BRAM
......they may also wish to consider:
"Rural watchdog urges councils to involve communities in public spending decisions....
Trials of a new way of involving local people in public spending decisions have been so successful that the Government's rural watchdog, the Commission for Rural Communities (CRC), now wants more rural local authorities to adopt participatory budgeting."
The people of Angmering might have a say then in how their money is spent.
Or maybe they won't?
If they were really bothered they (we) may already be aware of all that and beating their gums at PC meetings or ruining their manicure here, but they're not are they.
Where's Bert? |
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BRAM
Advanced Member
373 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2010 : 13:15:16
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I doubt whether most of APC live in the real world & yes BFA you hit the nail on the head - they just aren't bothered. Whilst prepared to chase worthless schemes they ignore worthwhile ones.
They & their supporters whine about how they are unjustly criticised for all their efforts but if they feel so undervalued why don't they just resign. What exactly is their real motive for public office? Self agrandisement perhaps? I certainly see no indication of public service in their actions.
Taxes may be unavoidable & a necessary evil but useless councillors we can do without. |
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neil
Forum Owner / Moderator
United Kingdom
2623 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2010 : 14:17:02
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BRAM, I think that the majority of parish councillors genuinely believe they are joining a parish council to make a difference and serve the community.
The problem is that, having joined, they are often ground down by the system and by perhaps just one or two others who have an ulterior motive for becoming councillors. They can become browbeaten and start to lose their independence.
As I have said on several occasions, there is an opposition at government, county and district level (usually a political party) which stops excesses by questioning decisions (or potential decisions) of the MPs/councillors. This leads to a certain amount of control and openness. However, at parish council level, there is no opposition and decisions are easily driven through by just a few dominant councillors; much transparency is lost as often village residents are effectively unable to see the papers that they would like to.
In Angmering, the AVL Forums act as a sort of opposition sometimes questioning Angmering Parish Council's decisions or seeking to find out more information, which APC clearly resents as they have been used to having the freedom which local and central government above them do not enjoy. Their non-communication only raises residents' suspicions.
I asked to see a document once in the APC office that was a bit controversial. Would you believe it, the document had been lost and still had not been found after several months' searching! The body language of the office staff, however, told another story.
I'm currently trying to get a response out of the APC over a matter arising from the last full council minutes. The Clerk's subsequent action has been most unsatisfactory and he clearly does not like my very simple follow up question which seeks clarification and has not replied to my email which was sent on Tuesday. Openness? |
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BRAM
Advanced Member
373 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2010 : 15:44:45
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Neil I agree that there are insufficient mechanisms to prevent excesses by parishes & the recent appointment of a full time parish clerk is a case in point.Obviously the locum clerk spent a lot of time building up some sort of case to convince APC of the need to empire build regardless of the economic climate.
Most parishes(some larger than Angmering) manage the job with part time clerks & it is traditionally a part time post,usually a secondary job so where is the evidence that Angmering needs a full time clerk.
Was it appropriate to use parish resources to create a lucrative career opportunity in this way which will now continue to cost council taxpayers by extra annual increases in tax to fund salary & pension payments.
I would also be interested to know what improvements have accrued since the appointment. |
Edited by - BRAM on 19 Mar 2010 15:46:04 |
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Bert
Advanced Member
484 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2010 : 12:39:17
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BFA, as you asked, "where's Bert?" I thought I would contribute.
It is very laudible of you to defend APC. I am sorry your other half is not now posting on this site, she gained immense respect for doing so.
You appear to be missing the point about criticism of some issues in respect of APC. It is mostly constructive and reasonable from residents / Council Tax payers, although I do accept there have been some unnecessary comments over time.
Individuals have been to PC meetings and been treated with contempt, because issues have been raised that APC did not like.
It may be worth reminding you of two postings on this site, from your other half.
"Before I joined the council I used to go to meetings and ask questions, sometimes I had to demand answers as I was ignored. I ranted and I raved on this site, just as you are doing now, but I did get the facts from the horses mouth so to speak."
Yes, Patty - July 2009.
"Believe me, I moaned about them (APC) more than all this site does, put together, so I joined."
Yes, also Patty - Aug 2009.
I respect Patty for joining APC after clearly being so critical and "moaning about them more than all this site does, put together," but there cannot be any criticism of others who do the same.
Most PC's know who posters on this site are, most of us have attended PC meetings and been treated with contempt.
APC should work with this site, for the benefit of all, rather than fighting against it.
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patty
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
738 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2010 : 13:56:28
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Hello Bert, you always know how to get me going.............
I haven't stopped posting, I have just been really, really, busy, with an immense amount of paperwork to catch up on.
I stand by all I said earlier, and, I also agree with the comments about being treated with contempt.
BUT, I would sincerely hope that was all well in the past.
I can remember going to the PC meetings on a monday night when they were in the library and re-arranging all the seating of the councillors each time - why? because they considered it was ok to sit half of them with their backs to the public.
Thats contempt!
When I asked them to re-arrange, I was pointedly told, it could not be done there was not enough room............so, I showed them how to do it!.It was not rocket science. They told me not to do it........Ha yeah, try me. I told them they were rude and were not going to sit with their backs to me. We argued about it for several months, till I decided to re-arrange the seating for them. Then, every month, I would get there 10 minutes earlier and re arrange the seating again!
It was quite amusing, (if it hadn't been so arrogant), they would still put the seating out their way, and I would re-arrange it so we could see all their faces. I even asked each individual councillor if they had a problem with this arrangement and did they have enough room. They all said they were ok.
It took me about 4 months of doing this before they eventually got the message, and eventually, started arranging the seating as it should be.
That Bert was sheer arrogance and contempt, and that was was we got from the PC on most questions we asked them.
But, please, please, tell me the PC is not still like that. It will probably never be perfect and will never please everybody all of the time, but I think big changes have been made and things are getting better month by month.
You know, twice in the last 6 months I have had the pleasure of chairing the Full meeting and was really looking forward to public questions.......do you know what? On both occasions NOT ONE member of the public came to the meeting.
So now I wonder...........is it because I am too scary or were they worried about me telling them the truth?
edited - forgot the smiley! |
any comments and views listed above are those of myself personally and not as a Parish Councillor, and in no way reflect opinions of the Parish Council or any other professional bodies |
Edited by - patty on 20 Mar 2010 13:57:05 |
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Bert
Advanced Member
484 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2010 : 14:16:54
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Patty, thankyou for the reply, although I do not see musical chairs as the contempt to which I was referring.
In a parish of 8,000 residents, you have Full Council and Committee meetings where not one resident attends.
Perhaps you and your APC colleagues should reconsider WHY members of the public do not attend Parish Council meetings. |
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BRAM
Advanced Member
373 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2010 : 14:27:58
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Patty's story about moving chairs reminds me of the joke about rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic.
In answer to your question "pleae tell me it is not still like that" - unfortunately it is. APC still fail to take Residents views into consideration & dismiss any criticism as irrelevant. Then she wonders why people fail to attend APC meetings.
She makes sweeping statements that "big changes have been made & things are geting better every month" but what exactly are these changes & in what way are "things getting better"?
A major criticism of APC has been poor communication & you demonstrate this clearly by vague hints without providing substantive detail.Even APC meeting notes lack substance & show little debate over items just the usual "noted" supposedly to indicate APC know what it's all about so that's sufficient & anybody reading the notes remains unaware of how decisions have been arrived at.
By the way what "truth" or whose "truth" are you referring to?
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neil
Forum Owner / Moderator
United Kingdom
2623 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2010 : 16:22:14
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Bert, I went to the last PC meeting and wish I hadn't. The public are not given hand-outs these days and, of course, so much is hidden away in these. I was just wasting my time. But there are more worrying aspects of public attendance at these meetings.
As I mentioned in my posting on this topic on 19 March, I have been having correspondence with the Clerk and things are far from satisfactory.
At the PC meeting on 8 March, two members of the public (one being myself) asked questions. I asked two questions. The principal one was when would the PC give residents a full breakdown of the costs of building the Community Centre. I was told that these would be available in May when costs of snagging would be known and after the end of the PC's final year. The second question was about the CC's acoustics and I was told that this would be rectified over two Sundays in March. I had no problems with either of the answers.
However, when the minutes of the meeting were published, neither of my questions and the answers were documented although the question from the other member of the public was.
Trying to do what the PC wanted and go direct to them rather than airing matters such as this on the Forums, I emailed the Clerk and asked for an explanation. He soon responded saying that it was an oversight and that the draft minutes were being amended. When I looked at the amended minutes, only the question about the acoustics was documented and not my main question about Community Centre costs. So I emailed the Clerk again asking for an explanation. This is the reply that I got:
quote:
The Parish Council minutes are just that , the minutes of the Council. The public session is merely an adjournment to allow points to be made and, in most Parish Councils these are not minuted at all. As a result, a number of matters brought up by the public do not get detailed in the minutes and your question regarding the costs of the Community Centre is one of those. I was merely confirming what has already been said on this subject and is reflected in your understanding detailed in the original email. There is no attempt being made to hide anything and it is particularly unhelpful for this mood of suspicion to be generated when I have always said that people are free to contact me and discuss such matters. The Parish Council accounts will be prepared at the year-end, including a statement of the overall expenditure and income on the Community Centre as far as it is known at that time. These accounts will be published and a summary included in the Newsletter and on the Parish Council website. I am committed to having an open door policy of making myself available to discuss matters, including finance, so that the Council Tax-payers of Angmering can have confidence in the work we are doing for the Parish.
This response worried me as there was no commitment to provide a breakdown which the PC had agreed and there was no intention of letting the public know of the arrangements. I therefore responded as follows: quote:
Why include any Public Questions and answers at all rather than just cherry-picking ones which suit the PC? The minutes are a record of what happened at the meeting including commitments made by the PC during public question time. Tell me, where is the instruction that discussions during public question time do not need to be minuted?
You must realise that the money spent is not yours - it is ours, the Council Tax payers. What you are suggesting now is that the PC has no intention of letting tax payers have a breakdown of the CC costs, on the biggest project that the PC has ever undertaken. It is this lack of transparency and intrangency that leads to suspicion and the bad feeling in the parish.
Strangely, there has been a deathly silence from the PC office. I was hoping he would come back and say that his reply was a misunderstanding and that they would indeed be providing a breakdown of CC expenditure and income and not just the overall figures as stated in his email. I only hope that my interpretation of what he said was wrong.
So, it seems that the Clerk cherry picks what he wants to put into the minutes leaving out anything that he thinks may come back and haunt them at a later date. So much for taking up matters directly with the PC!
I tell you what, I would not be surprised if the next thing we hear is that the PC has agreed a rule not to document public questions at all! Incidentally, East Preston and Ferring Parish Councils document public questions and so do Littlehampton Town Council (added later: and also Rustington PC).
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BRAM
Advanced Member
373 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2010 : 20:13:33
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So our parish clerk is not as committed "to improve the public perception of the Parish Council and to
provide an accessible service both from the office and by email" as he stated in the Parish newsletter.He obviously shares similar values & views to his employers, who he seems to consider the APC rather than the council tax payers who pay his salary.
Since he continues as parish clerk to Boxgrove & his internal audit work I am concerned that perhaps his full time duties in Angmering may suffer.Wasn't this considered by APC during the selection process? |
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