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cangenie
Average Member
Canada
37 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Jun 2009 : 06:38:00
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Hello again from Canada,
I am still tracing my Smiths and [88]finally [88]have a lead on a further generation back. I have been searching for the parents of James Smith, stonemason, b. Shoreham 1806 (who married Mary Ann Bennett b. Ferring 1810). They lived in Angmering abt. 1829-39. My grt grandfather Thomas and 3 siblings were born in Angmering before the family moved up to Willesden abt. 1840.
In 1841 census I found James' mother (I believe) living next door or in the same hhld (it's unclear) in Willesden. She is Judith Smith (nee ?) b. 1773 in Ferring. In 1851 census she lives in Clerkenwell with her son Matthew Smith b. Brighton 1801 and his wife Jane b. Amberley 1800. So it appears James had 2 brothers at least. Two christenings took place in Brighton, Matthew and Richard Richardson Smith c. 1798 if I remember right. The father is listed as Thomas Smith, mother Judith.
I wonder if anyone has info on Thomas and Judith Smith, Judith's maiden name, or other info on James Smith. We tried before but were unable to locate his Shoreham birth/christening info. |
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Stovepipe
Average Member
44 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2009 : 17:30:56
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Cangenie,
From the Sussex Marriage Index (SMI).
Thomas SMITH, bachelor, married Judith RICHARDSON, spinster, in Brighton on 2 August 1798, after banns, both of this parish [Brighton].
Henry RICHARDSON, bachelor of Ferring, married Sarah JUPP, spinster of this parish [Poling], in Poling on 13 November 1770, after banns. Witnesses were Berry CHATFIELD and Richard GREEN.
From the PRTS transcript of Ferring baptisms.
20/01/1773 Judith d. of Henry and Sarah RICHARDSON
Only one other child baptised to this couple at Ferring, viz. James, 06/05/1771 (born 29/04/1771).
RICHARDSON is a fairly common name in the Ferring register. A generation before Judith's baptism a couple named James and Anne RICHARDSON had the following children baptised.
John, 02/09/1733
James, 16/07/1735
Anne, 09/11/1740
Mary, 29/01/1743
John, 29/12/1745
Henry, 03/07/1748
From the PRTS transcript of Ferring burials.
24/10/1733, John RICHARSON [sic], a Child
16/12/1773, James RICHARDSON
13/07/1795, Ann RICHARDSON, aged 90
I've failed to find in the SMI an obvious marriage for James RICHARDSON and Anne.
Hope this helps,
Stovepipe |
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cangenie
Average Member
Canada
37 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2009 : 05:45:16
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Stovepipe, you are a wonder! Frustratingly I was unable to check AVL until now, but this is very exciting news. Thank you so much once again for the Ferring information. Now I have 2 branches from Ferring - Bennett's and Richardson's.
On the other side, I would have to be tracing Smiths, so any ideas where I go from Thomas Smith? Was he born in Ferring? or Brighton? We cannot get an idea of his occupation , can we? He must have died prior to 1841 as Judith is a widow by then. Any other children of theirs - William, Richard Richardson and James (disappointingly I am not able to definitely link James to the family, only that she is listed next to him in Willesden in 1841 as a widow. James Smith was born in Shoreham, his wife Mary Ann Bennett in Ferring) |
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Stovepipe
Average Member
44 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 00:35:15
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Cangenie,
Only negative news regarding Thomas Smith in Ferring, I'm afraid.
In my source there are about four SMITH families baptising children in Ferring in the 18th century. None has a child named Thomas and none has any child baptised after 1748. There are some other SMITH families in the 19th century, but Thomas and Judith don't appear.
Stovepipe |
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cangenie
Average Member
Canada
37 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 04:44:17
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Stovepipe,
Thanks for looking. I do appreciate it. Those Smiths! The Marriage index said 'of Brighton parish' but what did that include back in 1798?
After you gave me the name Richardson, I found another person who has traced them back to the 1550's! I'm to have a look at the sources soon so that will be interesting.
Sarah JUPP who you gave me was also in their info and listed as born 27 Oct 1746 in Angmering.
Thanks again and I do enjoy reading this site from across the pond,
Cangenie |
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cangenie
Average Member
Canada
37 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 05:48:03
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Stovepipe,
I've just seen that there's an inscription in St. Margaret's of a Mary, daughter of Thomas and Judith SMITH who died Dec 31 1826 Aged - Yrs and 9 Months. Reg Mary Smith 5/1/1826 age 15. So that means they were resident in 1826, doen't it?
BTW did John (d. 1813) and Susannah Smith of Lamb Inn and Vine Cottage have children? The name Susannah is in my family. Cangenie |
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Stovepipe
Average Member
44 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 15:47:23
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Hi Cangenie,
Unfortunately the SMI does not name the Brighton church, but at the 1798 date it was probably the old church, St Nicholas. Can't be sure about that, though.
The information I gave related to Ferring only, not Angmering.
However, in the PRTS transcript for Angmering there is no child baptised with parents Thomas and Judith SMITH. There is a Sarah JUPP baptised 27/10/1746, parents Robert and Elizabeth. The child's date of birth is not recorded. I would be careful about identifying her with the wife of Henry RICHARDSON without much more checking, especially the Poling registers. (I don't have those.) I can say that there is no burial in Angmering for Sarah before the marriage, so that's a minor point in favour of the identification.
There is no baptism for any child of John and Susannah SMITH.
The MI is interesting, but if it wasn't for the parents' names I would identify the child buried as Mary SMITH, baptised 12/06/1810, parents Edward and Sarah. The burial register doesn't name the parents. Note that the burial was performed in January 1826 while the MI has the death in December 1826 - something wrong there. Assuming an accurate year on the headstone, then my guess is the burial register entry is that of Mary, daughter of Edward and Sarah, not that of the child of the inscription. It's likely the register was searched to supply information missing from the MI and the 1826 burial was mistakenly chosen. That's just a guess, though. If the MI actually reads 1825 then the identification with the burial would be almost certain. It would be good to check the headstone, if possible. Not something I can do - although I'm a little closer to Angmering than Canada, I'm still over 200 miles away!
Stovepipe |
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neil
Forum Owner / Moderator
United Kingdom
2623 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 18:25:00
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Cangenie & Stovepipe, the MI transcription on this website does not state categorically that Mary Smith died in 1826. It reads:
In / Memory of / Mary Daughter of / Thomas & Judith / Smith / who died Dec (31) (1826) /
Aged (--) Years & 9 Months /
The date is in brackets which means that the transcriber, Richard Standing, could not be 100% certain of the year. I've just come back from looking at the gravestone and, even though it was not the best light to view it, the stone is badly eroded and it's just about impossible to read the year. It could well be December 1825.
Cangenie, I can provide a photo of the stone, if required. |
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cangenie
Average Member
Canada
37 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 23:47:35
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Hello Neil!
Thank you for taking the time to go and look. If it isn't too inconvenient I would love a photo, thanks.
I rummaged through my old snaps of when I visited in 1995 but alas no photo of that stone. I could have sworn I saw it. But maybe it was the other Mary Smith June _1863 age 86 years. (Not even close I know but we were so early on in our enquiries at that time that any Smith was a find. Any idea who she was?)
As to the date, I believe it was Registered 5th Jan 1826 so I just assumed the 31 Dec 1826 should really read 1825. Now Neil says it could quite possibly read that.
The other possible correlation is that Thomas and Judith's son, my grt grt grandfather James lists his first 4 children as born in Angmering in 1830, '33, '35, and '37. So the family were in the village around the time of 1825 or '26.
I have to wonder if the Edward and Sarah SMITH mentioned by Stovepipe are related. Any idea of Edward's family?
Prior to this I was working under the assumption the family had been fairly transient in the area but now I'm not as sure. (Silly question, I know, but why is it called Smith's Woods?)
Stovepipe's caution about the Sarah JUPP being the same one married to Henry RICHARDSON is interesting as I was inclined to jump to the obvious conclusion, and obviously this other person with her on his line as done so too. but I'll look at his records and see if there could be doubt. Certainly there are a lot of JUPPs in the local area.
Thanks again to you both for all your help. Stovepipe, I didn't know you were a fur'eigner too,
Cangenie |
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Stovepipe
Average Member
44 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2009 : 00:00:10
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Neil, thanks for the clarification.
Cangenie, I forgot to supply you with this Angmering burial.
31/12/1853 Thomas SMITH, 81, from Preston Poor House.
He's the right sort of age to be Judith's husband. He's probably a lodger living in Littleworth Angmering Street in the 1851 census, aged 78, born Clapham. Not likely to be your man, though - he's a pauper and widower. I assume Judith was described as a widow in her 1851 entry up in Clerkenwell.
Do you have the baptisms of James and Mary Ann's children? I notice James is either a sawyer or labourer, never a stonemason. Maybe he became one after leaving for Willesden.
Stovepipe |
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cangenie
Average Member
Canada
37 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2009 : 07:42:51
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Stovepipe,
I don't believe that Thomas Smith is the right one, as I found Judith without him in 1841, and listed as widow in 1851.
In fact that's how I got moving again on this line. I couldn't find any of the James Smith family in 1841 census, so I pored right through Willesden where they were in 1851 and there they were, seems to be the same house and everything. Judith is in their hhld. Then I found her in 1851 in Clerkenwell living with a son Matthew b. Brighton and wife Jane b. Amberley, with Judith b. Ferring. Found another baptism for a Richard Richardson Smith of Thomas and Judith SMITH in Brighton. I only wish I could find the James SMITH baptism in Shoreham, to confirm him as her son, and not just a next door neighbour.
Yes I think I have the 4 James Smith baptisms but I can't remember what church. Is that listed?
BTW both James' son Thomas and daughter Susannah married Howards from Willesden, brother and sister.
James is shown as an Ag Lab in 1841, a stonemason in 1851 in Willesden, later a grocer in Kensington. Son Thomas also stonemason but in Kensal New Town, later Pancras then Kensington. He was still a stonemason when he died on Portobello Road 1894.
Cangenie
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cangenie
Average Member
Canada
37 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2009 : 01:06:22
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Neil,
Thank you very much for the excellent photo. The stone is indeed hard to read due to weathering, you're right! Tragic loss for them, Mary being so young.
Cangenie |
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cangenie
Average Member
Canada
37 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2009 : 23:42:56
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Hello,
Found a listing for a Thomas SMITH born 17 Nov 1772, Polling.
Father Edward SMITH, mother Marey
Any way to link him, or not, to the Thomas Smith noted earlier by Stovepipe:
31/12/1853 Thomas SMITH, 81, from Preston Poor House.
The 2 Aug 1798 Brighton marriage between Thomas and 'Jude' Richardson is also on ancestry.
Also how do I access other Sussex records, ie Brighton, Shoreham, Polling etc?
Join a Family History Society? Ask librarians? Post questions?
Cangeneie |
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